11/6/12 02:45 pm - What I believe (some principles of politics and behavior)I'm not particularly closed about being a life-long Democrat.
That said -- having come this morning from voting a party-line Democratic ticket...my politics are a lot more complex than "I vote for the Democrats, no matter what." If anything, it's more "the weaknesses of the Democratic party are ones I care about somewhat less than my utter repugnance for some of the goals of the Republican party, and I'm not interested in voting for candidates with no chance when I believe there's a difference." So in light of that, a bit about what I actually think. 1. I don't want to be hurt, and support governmental things that protect me. I like laws against theft and murder and fraud, and police and fire departments, and a plausible and effective army, because one of the things the government does is protect people from accidents and other pepople (one of the primary things, in fact). I extend "me" to anything sentient, within limits of authority (whether or not it's human). I don't extend "me" to anything non-sentient (whether or not it's human -- and whether or not it -could- become sentient at some later date). 2. I think that overall, people deserve to be left alone and allowed to do what they want (assuming it doesn't voilate #1)--and that government isn't fundamentally a good tool for shaping/reshaping society, but -is- a good tool for enforcing agreements among people. So I think the government has a role in helping enforce contracts (including marraige contracts) but I don't think the government should be defining what people and how many should be involved in a contract (including a marraige contract) -- much less deciding what people say, what sexual acts they engage in or what (if anything) they pay for them, what substances they injest or inject into their bodies, or anything else as long as it doesn't directly impact on someone else (sin taxes on tobacco = bad -- for more than one reason; laws saying that non-smokers can practically avoid smoke while going about their business = good, within limits; laws about 32 oz soda = crazy). 3. I'm pretty well convinced that geopolitics is complex. So while I don't like the idea of killing people, much less torturing them (and on a -practical- level will accept that torture doesn't work), I won't accept a flat-out "war is bad" policy. This stuff is complex, and while I'll certainly take into account "this person's foreign affairs are nuts" vs "this person's foreign affairs seem to be reasonable" into account, there's only so much weight I'm willing to give her as it's effectiveness, not just principles, that matter here. 4. As a secondary function, I think that government can be effective and is useful at providing "collective good" services -- and that, in fact, it is our responsibility, where possible without interfering in society adversely (which I think it is) for us to take care of those who cannot take care of themselves -- and provide a safety net for to make sure that people do not unecessarily and unreasonably come to harm. This includes social services like medicare and food stamps, unemployment services/funds, publically provided education and the post office (which is, in fact, in the black, but that's another topic), providing a source of education, etc--and that often, the government is going to be more efficient at these topics than private industry (although it's good to have a give and take, as private industry will usually be less efficient but more inovative). 5. I think that in order to fund its primary and secondary functions, it's reasonable for the government to tax people. That said, I think that taxation should take a greater percentage from those most able to bear the cost (that is, I support progressive taxation and disdain regressive taxation). This also means that I hate and would love to abolish/make progressive all currently regressive taxes -- including sales tax, sin taxes (see above), and social security taxes -- all of which hit lower income people for a greater percentage of their income than they hit higher income people. I do understand that progressive taxes can have negative effects (both on the system as a whole and in causing people to officially "move" somewhere else) but think that they also have positive effects (partially countering the way that concentrations of wealth can be significant inefficiencies and sources of harm), that most negative effects can be avoided by not going overboard (no Carter-era 75% marginal tax rates) and that while migration is a serious problem (given that in general, high mobility is a good), that this isn't as much of a problem as it could be and that it's possible that something radical (I could even consider taxing land or property, rather than income) would work as a solution here. 6. I think that people should be able to make money by engaging in creative work that doesn't produce physical goods (hell, I do that, though it's programming, not trying to make money from my writing or whatnot). But that, contrary to where far too much global thought has considered intelectual property a source of wealth, I consider it a qualified evil -- a granted monopoly that actively hurts everyone except the grantee far more than it helps the grantee (or encourages the grantee to make stuff) most of the time. This is my starting point--I don't necessarily call for the repeal of all intellectual property (although it's one option, and I'm pretty confident, given that people like getting new stuff, that there would continue to be large markets for creative stuff and that, at least after the shakedown, authors and painters and musicians would not, in fact, starve--they'd be freeer to create based on whatever influences went past their (our) eyes and people would figure out a way to pay them to make cool stuff), but our current system is insanely out of hand. 7. For the most part, my life is not enriched by spending large amounts of time talking/writing about politics. So I don't. This entry was originally posted on Dreamwidth, where there are |
thoughtful
11/6/12 11:16 pm (UTC) - - What you think
You disdain for sin taxes seems to stem from the fact that it is regressive, and that gov't should not be able to mandate what folks put into their bodies. Fair enough. Progessive taxation has much to recommend it, and laissez faire when it comes to individual rights does, too. However, if - may hoist you by your own petard, the caveat is that it doesn't hurt others. While legislating them out of the equation has been proven ineffective, if only looking at the example of prohibition, taxing things certianly mitigates them, and also provides a revenus stream, which hopefully is used to further mitigate their consequences.
The main sins in question impose tremendous burdens on society. That has a very real cost, both in terms of lost opportunity -- sick or obese people are not normally as productive, happy, or even stable, but also medically.
If taxation doesn't eliminate the sins, but forces people to. Make harder choices about them, this seems positive. As with many illicit behaviors, bringing them into the open, regulating and taxingthem seems far more to everyone's benfit.
Clearly, in a superprogessive system, the financial burden falls to the wealthier, but this does seemthe epitomy of unfairness... It is one thing to ask the affluent to subsidize those who cannot readily fend for themselves, but another to ask them to subsidize their vices.
Morever, if the contention that taxes create a drag on the behavior, then removing it will increase it. How much so is an intereting question, but it is one I have desire to answer.
OhN and legidlating against 32 oz soft drinks is kinda ottt... The are better waysm
11/6/12 11:30 pm (UTC) -
mnemex - Re: What you think
FWIW, I am much more pro-legalization and anti-sales tax than I am anti-sin tax -- but it -is- a logical (and not entirely obvious) consequence of my core beliefs, so I put it in.
Part of the problem is that there are ways to discourage/mitigate self-destructive behavior other than tax and ban -- social services can often do a better job, for less.
Another is that the "sins" we tax can often be used in a non-self destructive (or at least not self-destructive in a way that puts a burden on society) manner.
A third is that sin taxes just aren't that effective. If we look at cigarette and alcohol taxes, I'd have to guess (educatedly) that smoking and drinking are -far- more popular with people near or below the poverty line than those above it. But they are hit far harder by the appropriate sin taxes--which serve, rather to keep them away from such vices, to instead make it harder to reach a level of affluence such that they have better things to do.
Now, it's possible that non-regressive sin taxes are possible (tax the production of destructive goods to pay for some of the damage they cause). I doubt it would work, since the costs would end up getting passed directly on to the consumer, but it would be interesting; I just don't think the math works.
11/7/12 02:30 am (UTC) -
crash_mccormick - Re: What you think
I know people who were able to make the change with varying difficulty for financial reasons.
OTOH I am comfortable with targeting money from behaviors with social costs to those activities. Tax gambling to fund treatment programs based on their effectiveness, etc.
The issue of how we fund health care is related. Sadly people are almost never willing to start out from the "You are poor, you get sick, you die" position and then add services and distribute costs honestly until they reach a level of support they are comfortable with.
11/7/12 05:32 am (UTC) -
ebartley - Re: What you think
We cringe away from honestly on health care and funding health care because we're ultimately faced with an unpleasant choice. And IMO it is right that we cringe at the thought of telling people they can't buy something which might save their life, or their child's life, and it is also right that we cringe at the thought of someone's survival depending on one's ability to pay. But those are the choices we've got, and cringing from both of them doesn't make the choice go away. Being dishonest doesn't help.
11/7/12 06:15 am (UTC) -
mnemex - Re: What you think
This does mean, yes, that rich people are going to have a better chance of surviving expensive diseases than poor people. This is fine--if anything, it's a positive overall good, since treatments that sick rich people fund eventually filter out to the rest of the population -- just like technologies invented for space travel have eventually resulted in a massive series of public goods (GPS, satelite internet/tv/radio/phone, hubble, filter-down technolgoies, etc) even if some of the motivations for funding it weren't sensible overall.
Where we tend to fall down is more in the middle ground; making sure everyone can get -some- access to public funding when they need it, and that people aren't unfairly punished just for getting sick faster/more often than other people who make the same choices. We should have -no- uninsured children, very few uninsured adults, and people should not be put into situations where they, for (theoretically) sensible financial reasons, choose to get sicker and hope they recover rather than seeking treatment/diagnostics that might make them well but -will- severely impact their ability to get by. People will still die, and some of those will die because it's simply not possible for them to afford the treatments needed to keep them alive -- but that should be the edge case, not the norm.
11/7/12 11:45 am (UTC) -
barking_iguana - Re: What you think
11/7/12 07:09 am (UTC) -
agrumer
11/7/12 07:33 am (UTC) -
ebartley
Worldwide, the NHS comes close on cancer care on occasion, saying that they'll withhold the normal chemotherapy care if you self-pay for additional therapies not on their pharmaceutical list. And I believe self-pay is still illegal in parts of Canada, though medical tourism is perfectly legal.
11/7/12 06:03 am (UTC) -
mnemex - Re: What you think
They do need to be balanced (and I'm not convinced they are) against the way in which sin taxes tend to (like all regressive taxes) keep poor people poor.
11/7/12 11:43 am (UTC) -
barking_iguana - Re: What you think
11/7/12 05:52 pm (UTC) -
mnemex - Re: What you think
11/7/12 01:34 am (UTC) -
filkertom
Taxes are our fee for that. You're basically paying for civilization, community, society.
You can tell regressive (as opposed to progressive) taxes/fees/laws/whatever by a simple quality: they try to discourage, rather than encourage, a behavior. They are exclusionary. (For instance: prayer in schools. No one ever tries to enforce by legislation a prayer to Buddha, Amaterasu, Cthulhu, Ba'al, or the FSM.)
A military is highly necessary. Wish it weren't.
11/7/12 02:43 am (UTC) -
agrumer
11/7/12 05:52 am (UTC) -
mnemex
In the end, I'm more interested in voting for someone I agree with on what I am sure of (as much as possible -- I think outside of the pirate party, nobody in politics seems to share much of my priorities, and even there there are differences) and go for a sense of competence and non-corruption for the stuff that's much more of a judgement call.
11/7/12 05:59 am (UTC) -
mnemex
Your example re prayer in schools is actually much more a matter of my suspicion of laws that try to mold society rather than avoid/prevent harm and free society to mold itself. In general, such attempts (these days, at least; in the old days they were far more overt about it) don't attempt to force everyone to pray the same way. But they try to mold society -- "this is a country that prays," rather than allowing people to pray or not as they choose based on their beliefs. And, of course, they often have negative secondary effects (eg, if the school is 95% protestant, anyone who behaves differently can get singled out).
Re Military...it would be nice if we could build a functioning global society with a police force, and no individual militaries (nice on some levels, anyway, but I did specify "functioning"). But we haven't--so we really do need a military.
11/11/12 02:43 am (UTC) -
bigscary
There's also the problem that it you whisper polygamy, the crazies will scream shariah.
11/11/12 02:57 am (UTC) -
mnemex
Still, this doesn't prevent it from being a worthy goal--it is; just a difficult one.